Nigerian US based Pastor, Pastor (Dr.) 'Niran Fafowora talks about Divorce and Remarriage, as well as intricacies of being a minister of God

Pastor (Dr.)  Idowu O. Fafowora is a Pastor and Business Consultant. Academically, he is a Doctor of Education in Organizational Leadership, which he studied at Argosy University, Graduate School of Business, Los Angeles, California. 

     Also Pastor Fafowora is a member of Institution of Civil Engineers, U.K. (1983), Member Nigerian Institute of Structural Engineers (1985). He is a COREN Registered Engineer (1983), European Engineering Council Registered (1983). He is a Senator and life member of Junior Chambers International and life member of Full Gospel Business Men Fellowship International(FGBMFI). 

     Besides being the senior pastor at The Redeemed Christian Church of God, Jesus Embassy, Los Angeles, he presides over Leaderskills, Inc. (USA) a people development and leadership training organization. 

    Before coming to the USA, he had served as a member on the Advisory Committee of Faculty of Arts Ogun State University (1991-1994) and also served the Odua Group of Companies as Chairman of Board, Lagos Airport Hotel, representing Osun State. Dr. Fafowora is an alumnus of Haggai Institute for Advance Leadership, Hawaii, USA and a Scholar of Jack Hayford School of Pastoral Nurture, California, USA. 

In a long conversation with Olori Wendy, he related some of his pastoral experiences as well as his theological views. 

The ambiance of your sanctuary and structure of your church auditorium is captivating, would you describe yourself as a successful pastor? How would you describe a successful church?

It is only God that can tell us who a successful pastor is. Sometimes the building you see does not necessarily represent the success of a pastor, it however may represent God's favor on His shepherd and a mark of God's encouragement to the congregation under him. When God sees that the struggles of his people match the sincerity of their hearts, He comes quickly to motivate them. The provision of the edifice you see and the way it came represent God's physical manifestation and attestation to the fact that we are truly called to serve Him. 

It is a very good building so I believe we are just favored. A number of people did not know where we were before. We have been in the USA for fifteen years before the gift of this cathedral. We were in the basement of a business building that could house a maximum of 150 souls. Two years ago, the Lord gave us the directive to move the church from the valley - northern side of Los Angeles County to Los Angeles proper to possess the gates of Los Angeles. As you see, this building is only fifteen minutes from Los Angeles International Airport and ten minutes from downtown Los Angeles.  A Bishop had presided over this cathedral before and now we too are passing through. The gentleman the Lord used to bankroll the building told me that God was probably looking for the people He could trust and use to preserve the building as a place of worship, and that we are blessed to be His confidants. 

     

Personally I don't use a building to judge one's success.   I will rather use the souls that are won, the lives that are transformed, activities that glorify His name, teaching, counseling and mentoring that foster godliness in people's life as indices of success. It is good to have a very good ambiance to worship God, particularly in Los Angeles where exciting structures are located all over. It makes it easy for us to boast of the faithfulness of God and it represents a good testimony that we serve a God of beauty and excellence. Our preaching, worshipping, praying, counseling, mentoring and other societal transformational activities are received as authentic because people like to identify with success. When people see the favor of God upon your life, they want to follow you.  Nobody wants to be a failure in life. It is easier to fail than to succeed. To fail, all you have to do is nothing whereas to succeed, you must keep up with the struggles of life and refuse to accept defeat. 

Before I became a pastor God had given me the opportunity to gain management and leadership experiences as a successful engineer in private practice. My wife too had been exposed to leadership and management concepts as consultant ophthalmologist at the UCH, Ibadan, Nigeria. After we became Pastors, God had used us to plant many churches under the umbrella of The Redeemed Christian Church of God. Jesus Embassy Ibadan was the first church we planted. To the glory of God that parish has grown to become two provinces boasting of some 200 parishes. The work is prospering in the hands of well trained and committed workers who have become excellent co-laborers in His Vineyard. Regardless of the progress made, my disposition is that the work is just starting as there is a lot of ground to cover, both nationally  and internationally.

                

    

How did you come into a relationship with Christ, your call to the ministry and what motivated you to stay in ministry and continue here in the US?

I gave my life soon after my wife raised some people to pray for me after she became born-again. The actual experience was triggered by an event that shook me. A lady died of cancer and the husband that was very close to her got married not so long after. It shocked me that somebody died and another could replace her within a short time. The experience showed me the futility of life. With that experience,  I saw life from a different perspective. I saw life as full of vanity. I was persuaded to note that there must be more to life than secular work and social life. So I felt a vacuum in me, I felt I needed to be closer to God, and that thinking, that feeling, drove me to a Pentecostal church where I gave my life. God called me to the ministry in Nigeria and I had been a pastor for four years before I came to the USA. Now to the glory of God, I have been a Pastor for 20 years the same number of years I practiced engineering.   

There are more things that discourage one from pastoring, but those things even though they are so many, they are not comparable to the joy of serving God. They are not comparable to the feeling of being used by God in bringing eternal testimonies into people's lives. It is very exciting when you witness positive changes in people's lives. It is also exciting when you champion paradigm shifts that glorify God at every opportunity you have. Many people make the mistake of being answerable to man in human organizational structures. You get to a level where your accountability to God has to be well balanced with your loyalty to your organization in a manner that God will be completely pleased. "And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong , and do exploits." (Daniel 11:32) 

Over the years, God has been good to me and my family, God has encouraged and motivated us all along, I don't know the kind of work I will do in Nigeria that I will be able to send five daughters to come and study here in the USA. That would be a near impossible achievement without the temptation of compromising godly principles here and there. Serving God in international waters has given us the opportunity to afford the best of education for our children and also opportunities of self development for ourselves. I got here and obtained my Masters Degree in Project Management and the Doctorate degree in Education (Ed.D) with concentration in Organizational Leadership. My wife too obtained her Masters Degree in Public Health and the PhD degree in Epidemiology. God gave us the opportunity to start a new life different from what we used to have, as a family.

My wife and I became father and mother figures to many Nigerians in diaspora here in the USA. We are privileged to bring the Word of God alive to the people. Using the tools of prayer, counseling, mentoring, discipling and role modeling, we are able to lead people to God by the power of the Holy Spirit. Nothing can be more fulfilling than to see your involvement result in positive changes in people's lives. When I was approaching forty, I was getting tired of engineering and I was considering going into politics after serving the Osun State Government as Chairman of Lagos Airport Hotel under the then military governor of Osun State, Navy Captain Udofia. God changed that plan when I became born-again. I remember one of my greatest mentors the late Chief Bola Ige tried to woo me into politics and invited me to come back home to serve 'your people' as he put it. I remember answering him jokingly that I would come home to serve on the condition that I would be appointed an ambassador to a foreign country. The sage assured me that if I come home it would be easy to work something out considering my qualifications, experience and exposure. His assassination in Ibadan, inside his bedroom reengaged my focus on serving God. I know being an ambassador for Christ is much more fulfilling than being an ambassador for a nation. An ambassador can only serve at the whims and caprices of his appointee whereas being an ambassador for Christ, is for life.

Pastor (Dr) and Pastor (Dr) Mrs Fafowora

What is the most enjoyable part of your current ministry position compared to when you were in Nigeria? What are the challenges?

The ministry position in the USA offers us the opportunity to be truthful to ourselves and be well guided in the community we are in. Government is involved in the way we run churches and people's lives, unlike in Nigeria where the word of the General Overseer is final whether it makes sense to you or not. In Nigeria,  you may not have the luxury of expressing your mind out of fear of being victimized by those who do not really understand the appropriate use of spiritual authority. Here there is the liberty to express yourself boldly and care to make a positive difference.  

The greater challenge here is the preservation of the authentic gospel. In the USA, messages of prosperity are beginning to overshadow messages that transform lives. The capitalist culture of the society is seriously impacting preaching of the gospel in a manner that tend to draw the focus away from Jesus Christ but to the preacher. We hear less and less of the Message and more and more of the messengers, particularly those with big names. Dollar-call is fast becoming the norm over and above altar call. Interestingly the culture of marriages over here appear to be contracts of convenience. when things go awry, the government is always there to help restructure your family for the sake of peace and not necessarily for the sake of eternity.

  

Pastor Adeboye is a highly respected man of God, are you close to him, how do you view him personally?

I believe that everybody who is a senior pastor and who has risen to the level of provincial pastor should be close to Papa Adeboye. I also believe that his presence should not be taken for granted and taken advantage of. I don't go to him for every problem I have because I know his mind is probably overwhelmed with a number of things and I liken being close to Baba Adeboye to being close to God. If you are far from God, you think you know God, but as you move closer to God, you begin to observe that you can only comprehend Him but may not be too sure you know Him, because He is God. Sometimes you fast and pray for God to show up in an event, He may show up but not the way you expect Him. Some other instances, He will show up big time when you do not expect Him to show up. For example, the way He gave us the Jesus Embassy Cathedral still beats my marvel. 

I used to be very close to Baba Adeboye but decided to begin to keep my distance the day he told me that many people who have been close to him in the past have ended up disappointing him. I definitely would not like to be counted among his close disciples who lie to him because of the 'bread and butter' that ministry positions have to offer. Baba Adeboye was the greatest lecturer that ever taught me in the University of Lagos. Rev. W.F. Kumuyi taught me 'A' level pure and applied mathematics in Mayflower School for three years before then. From my personal experience, the closer I get to Baba Adeboye, the less I understand him. This is may be on account of increase in complexities of ministry responsibilities. Many of my colleagues here in the USA  are able to predict him to the extent of getting away with actions that are contrary to kingdom principles. 

There was a time he likened the RCCGNA leadership to a dog of $25.00 compared to a dog of $250,000.00. He explained a dog of $25.00 does what he chooses to do, whereas a dog of $250,000.00 does whatever his owner wants him to do. That comparison jolted me and I took it personal. One or two of my colleagues told me not take the comparison too seriously because they believe that was Baba's style of motivating people and that he probably made the same comparison to the leadership of other regions in the world. Business therefore continued as usual.

The much I know of Papa as General Overseer convinces me that God is with him. There is no way he could have accomplished everything he accomplished in the RCCG all over the world without God backing him up. He has taken giant steps in achieving feats that are beyond human comprehension. To me Baba Adeboye's complex nature can only be understood by the One who created him. He can go on extended period of fasting and yet his energy does not diminish. He presides and leads all kinds of people and he is able to maintain his cool at all times. His detractors pass sneer comments at his life style, he remains unperturbed. He is able to dine and wine with world leaders, yet he remains humble. My greatest fear however rests in the controversial integrity of some us his disciples who surround him. There are those of us who have genuinely developed a symbiotic relationship with him for the sake of the Kingdom and there also those of us who have developed parasitic relationship with him for the sake of our 'stomach'. The unfortunate thing is that Papa will still be accountable for the souls of the good, the bad and the ugly in the system. This is where God must be feared.

RCCG Jesus Embassy, Los Angeles 

What are some of the theological issues that you think are especially important for Christians to get right in this time and place?

The doctrines that the bible presents through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior cut across cultures and generations. The gospel does not discriminate against gender, culture, nations, generations, etc. Christ made it clear that he became servant to all so as to save many. "For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you." (1 Corinthians 9:19-23) 

Christianity as a lifestyle modeled after Jesus Christ  by the power of the Holy Spirit is universal. The simplicity of the message of the gospel does not nullify its authenticity. Regardless of the environment, humans are still humans, cultures may differ but as far as I am concerned, we must continue to teach the undiluted Word of God unapologetically. Yes the USA environment may be different, it does not give us the excuse to forsake our first love and re-impose religiosity over relationship.

What is your view of divorce and remarriage? Especially as it seems marriage doesn't seem to last in the US?

I do not have a different view about marriage from what the Bible has specified. The Bible makes it clear that man and woman should be together so they won't be alone. They are to help each other, bear and support each and be intimate with one another. God has called people into holy matrimony because He is holy. God hates divorce (Malachi 2:16). A son of God must be like God his Father. Since God is against divorce, I have no choice other than to hate divorce.  It is not in my place to condemn or become judgmental against those who unfortunately find themselves in situation of divorce. Mine is to counsel and guide people towards restoration and rehabilitation as may be approved by God. Many people go into marriage without understanding what marriage is all about, not knowing that there comes a time when the wine (the chemistry between a man and a woman) finishes in marriage. However, the intervention of Christ at that time brings a new wine that transforms love into responsibility to the extent that all those who partake of the new wine would be happy and encouraged. Marriage of the foremost is about responsibility, period. 

Marriage as a teamwork needs to be taught among Christians. There are four stages of team formation which are applicable to a marriage. There is the Forming Stage, when a man and a woman meets each other, get connected and initiate a lasting relationship. The forming stage gets to the altar and then begins to change to the Storming Stage. Forming stage lasts up to 2 to 6 years depending on how long the courtship lasts. 

Storming stage begins with the first one or two years of marriage. At his stage reality has set in. Each party is now seriously looking at what each party has brought on to the table. It is at this stage that ambitions and careers have to be synchronized. The reality of the differences in education, social background, closeness to in-laws, employment demands begin to act out. It is also at this stage that one or two babes may come in and this naturally destabilizes existing synergy. A loss of employment on the part of one partner or infidelity may stress the marriage further. The storming stage is the most traumatic. If the relationship is not well managed, the storming stage can last up to 10-12 years. Usually, it is at the tail end of storming stage that many marriages break. 

Surviving the storming stage leads the couple to the norming stage. A the norming stage each party has grown to accept each other's differences within acceptable limits of tolerance. Norming stage leads the couple to accept the inevitable truth that marriage is more of responsibility and less of emotional feelings. Each party has also brown responsibly in their career and in the community and no one will want to be stigmatized with divorcee label. Th children too would have grown up enough to be trained through the right modeling. Questions like, "daddy, why are you shouting at mummy?" is not an easy question for a responsible father to answer. At this stage each party may find solace in getting involved in one past time or another. This may involve active participation in church activities, recreational clubs and other societal activities that give them the opportunity to let off steam. Norming stage too can last up to 10 years.

Increase in responsibilities over the children and over each other prompts the couple to move to the Performing Stage. At the performing stage, one or two children could have become teenagers. They could be college bound. They may even be graduating from college with employment opportunities starring them in their faces. At this stage in life the parents have no choice other than to perform together as a team otherwise they run the risk of ridicule by their grown up children. It is at the performing stage or just before then that certain investments as owning properties are consolidated. It is at the performing stage that parents are able to perform wedding ceremonies for their own children. The performing stage has no end. It includes performance over grand children as grand parents. The performing stage as a couple terminates when death doth them part. 

The Mourning stage sets in after a partner's demise. The surviving partner mourns through out the rest of his or her life. At this stage he or she will require emotional, spiritual social, and sometimes financial support to cope effectively with the life of a widow or widower as the case may.  Some people due to ignorance or carelessness do fast forward the mourning stage when they make the choice of divorce. Divorce automatically leads the divorcee to a mourning stage. The story of divorce never ends more so where children are involved.

How has your theology changed since you relocated to the USA?

My theology cannot change, my doctrine cannot change but my style of preaching the Gospel has been moderated to suit the environment we are in. For example I used to get very angry that people don't show up for Digging Deep but I have come to realize it could be the nature of their work so I don't let it affect me any longer. I have also come to the understanding that the people here don't have the time to spend 3 to 5 hours in church every Sunday, like it happens in most Nigeria churches. Our regular Sunday programs are therefore tailored to fit into a maximum of two (2) hours. Also the testimonies we include in our sermons must bear relevance to the culture and life style of the community. 

Redeem is the fastest growing Pentecostal church in the world, how do you see the church as a senior member operating in the USA?

Just recently, I was telling my wife that The RCCG is the fastest growing Pentecostal Church and we are almost all over the world, and if that is so, and there is God in heaven, then the file of the RCCG must be prominent on God's table. In the same manner, the US is the most powerful nation in the world. If the biggest pentecostal church has a sizable numerical strength in the most powerful nation in the world, then it is reasonable to conclude that a special section of the RCCG file on God's table will be devoted to the RCCGNA. We in North America are the most privileged missionary in the world if we can be so described. Everybody who had at least risen to become a leader would probably have his or her name highlighted in the file. 

This reasoning makes me to be afraid of God and informs my strict adherence to zero tolerance for injustices and unrighteousness. I therefore find myself remaining a prisoner of what I preach, so that after preaching Jesus Christ, I do not become a cast away myself. (1 Corinthians 9:27). I consider myself a finished work in progress, very far from perfection. As a senior member of the RCCG in the USA, I do not want to drown in the ocean of sin of injustice, immorality, greed, oppression, extortion, insensitivity, etc. that I have observed among many of us Christian leaders. 

Also I believe the devil is working very hard to make sure that many of us pastors do not make heaven. Although the Lord assures us that He will have compassion on whom He will have compassion (Romans 9:15), I believe I still have the moral responsibility to ensure that I do not take the grace of God in vain. This is why I am closely watching the leadership activities of my church and shouting hallelujah with one eye opened due to the activities of some of our leaders particularly here in North America.. The moment I am persuaded that the covenant the Lord has with this church is on the process of being truncated and that I have been deceived all along, there will be war all over the world and the war will resonate in heaven. This is the reason why I have for now submitted myself to the leadership of Papa Adeboye who in my personal estimation, I consider the fourth person of the trinity who is dwelling among us earthlings.

Redeem in Nigeria built the biggest auditorium 3km by 3km , they are to unveil a 12m capacity in August 2016, can you tell us about the project?

I heard and read about the project, I have not seen the project because I'm scared. One of my pastor friends who attended the last congress said it took him over two and a half hours to move from the new auditorium to the old auditorium and on a very dusty road. I have therefore decided to wait until the project is completed before I worship in it. There are certain health considerations that must be heeded when one attains to the age of senior citizen. 

We RCCG Pastors and workers do get excited at huge projects and the excitement lead us sometimes to overestimate what we have actually achieved. I have read online a figure that puts the capacity of the new auditorium at 12 million people.  Unless there are other extensions annexed to the building, the auditorium can never accommodate 12 million people. An auditorium of 3km by 3km can accommodate 9,000,000 people each person occupying an approximate space of 1m (3.28') by 1m (3.28'), standing next to each other without chairs, and without giving allowances for the stage and the aisles. 

When chairs are added for a convenient sitting arrangement and with economic space planning, the auditorium will accommodate about half that number, i.e. 4,500,000 million. When allowance is made for aisles, the stage and other spaces for services, a conservative allowance of 10% reduces the space to accommodate about 4,000,000 million people whether sitting or standing. If Papa requested for an auditorium that could sit 12 million people and he is given a design that can sit only 4.5million, then there has been a breakdown in communication somewhere. Realizing however that Rwanda, Belgium, Cuba, Somalia, Greece, Tunisia, Bolivia, Haiti all have population ranging between 10-12 million, a 12 million people auditorium is like putting the entire population of Belgium (11,316,587 people) under an auditorium.

A lot of people have asked me if it makes sense for anybody to build an auditorium of that magnitude. 

My answers have been very simple. Papa Adeboye is not anybody. He has a way of achieving what the mind of man finds difficult to comprehend. I believe Papa Adeboye cannot do anything that God has not permitted him to do, so the issue of whether it makes sense or not to anybody does not arise. I also believe the RCCG would have complied with the usual diligence of satisfying government regulations of guaranteeing healthy usage of the building. One can also assume that the government would have ascertained an acceptable environmental impact analysis (E.I.A.) of such a colossal project.

My apprehension has nothing to do with Papa Adeboye's ability to carry and sustain any project of whatever magnitude. His anointing can carry anything. My serious apprehension is what happens in a post Adeboye regime. I do not want to appear to limit God and I am a strong advocate of faith. One cannot at the same time ignore the interface between faith and reasoning. In my mind, I liken Papa Adeboye to Jesus Christ whose shoe had to be filled by 12 disciples who were empowered by the Holy Ghost for them to continue His ministry.  I have not seen the pastor amongst us who can today fill the shoes of Baba Adeboye. Maintenance of many of such colossal projects wherever they are erected will present serious challenges to whoever becomes the next General Overseer. This is already a conversion that has started among Baba's followers and other Christian leaders but are discussed in hush tones. 

The Fafoworas' 

Tell us about your family. How does your wife feel about being a pastor’s wife? What are your children like? How do the pressures of the ministry and expectations of the congregation impact your family?

My wife is also a pastor, she is my co-pastor. We therefore do not refer to her as, "pastor's wife". We are both pastors who challenge each other to excellence in serving God. We learn from each other and we are each other's greatest critiques when it comes to serving God. Serving God has helped our marriage tremendously because we both realize that no matter what is going on, we are stuck with each other. Our love for God and for each there makes it easy to maintain the status quo. 

Initially, the demand and pressure of our calling was tough and rough on our children. Pastors children are sometime saddled with expectation of certain behaviors as if they are endowed with the ministry of, 'pastor's children' from heaven. We are blessed that our children have been able to adopt to our calling as pastors. With prayers and appropriate guidance, they are able to do well in the church and their secular world. 

What are your greatest weaknesses as a pastor or sins you struggle with most?

The greatest challenge is for me to remain who I am in Christ Jesus. I have refused to be molded into the crucible of a religious leader. I believe relationship achieves more than religiosity that keep people in bondage. I bring everything into the open in teaching, counseling and role-modeling. California is a place froth with temptation of immorality and one should not make any pretenses about this reality. During summer we see all sorts of near naked bodies all over the place and I have adopted the attitude, "devil wears prada" - a mentality synonymous to 'demons on parade - don't even look'. Let him who thinks he is standing be careful less he falls.

What I struggle mostly with is forgiving those who stab me at the back in ministry. I do find solace all the time at the message of forgiveness I preach regularly. Many times my outspokenness about wrong leadership approaches get me into trouble with many of my colleagues. The good news is that I am able to keep a clean conscience every time I speak out. 

Papa Jack Hayford once counseled that there are levels of leadership you can never attain in many churches unless you compromise your integrity. 

Ed Stetzel (2012) in his blog titled "Considering and Surviving unhealthy Christian Organization" counseled that you have two options to make heaven in such situation if you find yourself in churches described by Papa Jack Hayford. You either leave the church or stay and become a catalyst of change, if you believe God is leading you to stay. He ever cautioned that one should never pick up a battle that God has not assigned him. 

What activities or projects do you have forthcoming, personally or for the church?

I find it difficult to differentiate my personal life from my calling as a pastor. I don't see personal projects that I have besides being an adjunct professor in a college, a facilitator of leadership training and people development programs and serving as a GM of an oil and gas company in Los Angeles. For the church, we always have special programs on monthly basis especially since we have moved into the cathedral and such programs include and are not limited to leadership training and people development, prayer retreats, davidic praise and worship, reformatory programs for the community, etc.

What are your hobbies and any other areas of interest apart from ministry?

I play scabble most of the time, and also watch good movies regularly. I like to read and write a lot. I enjoy watching basket ball games. I also like to spend time with my family. Personally, I just believe we should focus on Christ because he is coming back soon.  

I am always fascinated by the story of the 10 virgins, 5 were wise and 5 were foolish. The 5 whose oil finished means the anointing finished before Christ came and they could not enter with the bridegroom.

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